Thieleman J. van Braght · 139 of 210

Old Book of the Martyrs Mirror · Part 77

Fr. Corn. Tush, tush! you are beginning to preach again, are you? Hence one more question, and then enough. In good faith, if an unbaptized person of your Anabaptistic church were instructed far enough in your devil's faith, to receive baptism, and,he should come to be baptized, and should become so sick and faint as to lose all self consciousness, and could therefore not confess his faith before or in baptism, would you also suffer him to die unbaptized, I suppose you would? hence your nonsense and twiddle twaddle deserve no respect or regard.

Jac. Though he should die in that faintness, unbaptized, he would be saved through his faith; for Christ (Mark 16:16) says: "But he that believeth not shall be damned."

Fr. Corn. Well, I have no desire tof dispute any longer with you. I shall go my way, and let the executioner dispute with you, with a burning fagot * * * and afterwards the devil in hell, with burning pitch, brimstone and tar, see.

Jac. No; for Paul writes (II Cor. 5:1): "If our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Fr. Corn. Bah! in hell, in hell. Expect nothing else than to go through this temporal fire into the eternal,; hell yawns and gasps for your soul, you accursed, damned Anabaptist that you are, see.

DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IM;

PRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN

DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS,

IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON

THE 10TH OF MAY, A. D. 1569

Fr. Corn. I would say, Good day, Herman; but I am quite wrought up and angry yet from yesterday, at your accursed hedge preacher, or teacher, who has so wickedly seduced, deceived, crazed, bedeviled and bewitched you and your fellow Anabaptists by his damnable, hellish, Anabaptistic heresies, out there in the miserable Gruthuysbosch. Hence I must now come here and try whether I can draw you away again from this Anabaptism, and convert you to our Catholic Christian faith; have you a mind for it, or not? Let us hear now.

Herm. To judge from your speaking, I should think that you are angry, and if you had not told me yourself, I would have thought, that you wanted to frighten me. But why are you so angry at that friendly, pleasant man, who I think did not give you one hard word?

Fr. Corn. He nevertheless called me a papist once or twice; but I do not care * * * for that; but I am very angry that he would in no wise suffer himself to be converted from his accursed Anabaptism and all other accursed heresies, in regard to which I have spent so much labor in vain; and the most vexatious of all is, that though I so well showed, and convinced him of, his bad, evil, wicked, false, heretical faith, as these good lords have well heard, it was all of no avail; ill betide him.

Herm. I think, that he nevertheless clearly showed you with the holy Scriptures, that his faith is in Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God; whereby then could you show him, that his faith is bad, evil, wicked, false, and heretical, as you say?

Fr. Corn. Fie, alas! I already hear by this answer, that I shall win no laurels in the way of converting you. But in good faith, do you people think it enough, only to believe in Jesus Christ? Ali, bah, all the devils of hell believe in Jesus Christ; bah, see here now, what we are tormented with. Bah, you ought to, and must also, on pain of the damnation of your soul, believe in all the other articles of the Christian faith, and the excellent, holy institutions of our mother the holy Roman Church, which by our holy fathers, the popes, have in all general holy councils, been ordained and decreed to be believed and observed. But you Anabaptists neither believe nor observe anything of them, except it be very plainly stated in the holy Scriptures; for if there are any matters contained in the Scriptures, that seem somewhat obscure to you, you will by no means believe them; as, for instance, all that is contained in the holy Scriptures concerning prayer for the refreshing and deliverance of the souls in purgatory; nor all that is said in them respecting the seven sacraments; nor all that they say concerning priestly authority; nor all that is found in them regarding the transubstantiation, or change, of the bread and wine into the real flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, in the Sacrament of the altar; nor all that they contain concerning the perpetual virginity and purity of Mary, the blessed mother of God. No, these and very many other holy articles you will not believe; yea, what is still more abominable, the worthy blessed mother of God, whom you ought and are in duty bound to honor, serve, invoke, and entreat, that she would intercede for you with her dear Son, her you Anabaptists do not esteem better than your filthy, * ,* sinful wives. And in like manner you despise and reject all the holy saints and sainfesses whom you ought to honor, fast to them, celebrate, invoke,.and entreat; that they would stand as advocates or mediators between God and you, .and intercede, for you; bah! is this not a fine thing? Bah, you are silent: answer me, why you heretics bear such enmity and hatred to the worthy, blessed mother of God, and to 211 God's saints'; let us hear now.

Heym. That we should hate Mary the mother of Jesus Christ, and the saints of God; this be far from us; but that we do not invoke and entreat them that they should stand as advocates or .mediators between God, and us, this is because John, in the second chaptr of his first epistle .says: "If any man sin, we. have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world," In like manner, Paul writes to Timothy, in the second chapter of his first epistle: "There is one God, and one mediator 'between God and man, the roan Christ Jesus: who gave himself a ransom for all." In the same manner he also writes to the 'Hebrews; in the ninth chapter. But we do not hate our enemies; how then should we hate God's saints, our, fellow brethren and sisters in the Lord?

Fr. Corn. Indeed? if they are your fellow brethren and sisters in the Lord, why then do you bear such enmity and hatred to them, that you help burn or destroy their relics or bones; and break their images to pieces, wherever you have been able to get at them? is this not a fine brotherhood and sisterhood? accursed Anabaptists that you are.

Herm. We do not meddle with your affairs; if you would leave us alone in our faith and in our walk and conversation, as we leave you alone, in your religion, and with your images, relics or dad men's bones, your hands would remain unstained with and innocent of our blood. But you generation of Cain first killed the saints of God; and then take them to exalt and honor them with fasting and celebrating, and erect to,' them idolatrous images, which they themselves despised and rejected, and you honor their bones, as Christ says, Luke 11:47

"Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets: and your fathers killed them." Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build, their. sepulchres. Therefore also saith the wisdom' of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and' persecute: that the blood of all the prophets [which was shed from the foundation of the world], may `be 'required of this generation; from the blood of Abel. Matt. 23.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! would you * * * `accursed Anabaptists compare yourself to the prophets, apostles, and to' God's holy martyrs, popes and ~ iests, whose blood was shed for the Catholic, Christian faith, of which you Anabaptists are now such enemies, that you through the rejection of the sacrament of the priesthood reject, not only the six othei sacraments, and all our Christian ceremnies and acts of worship, but also all the articles of' the Christian, Catholic faith, as I have said; therefore you are put to death; do you understand this, you uncouth, blockheaded Anabaptist that you are?

Herm. However uncouth and blockhead I am, I understand very well that you put us to death because we do not believe or observe these popish, or Romish, church articles, part of which you have mentioned. And you think that you do God service by killing us for it, as Christ says (John 16:2, 3): "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoe~er killeth you will think that. he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me."

Fr. Corn. Bah l you bewitched and devil possessed Anabaptists, would you also fain claim this for your side; would you? Bah, and would you charge and upbraid us priests and Catholics with such things, would you? Bah, and would you also say., that we priests know neither God nor His Son Jesus Christ, would you? Ah, bah! who knows God and Jesus Christ better than we Catholic priests? Hence this is all spoken concerning the Jewish priests, and concerning the Anabaptists; Calvinists, Lutherans, and other heretics, who in France and Spain in these lands and elsewhere, so tyrannically .persecute, trouble, torment, and martyrize us priests, because we have the true knowledge of God and Christ, see.

Herm: It is to _ be feared that Christ will not know you, though you think that you know Him so very well; for you are of so many different orders and rules. You are a Franciscan, the other an Augustinian, the other a Carmelite, the other a Jacobine or Dominican, the other a Benedictine; yea, innumerable are the orders and sects into which you are divided, and each has its special ceremonies and rules, according to which he must live, of which not a word is found in the teaching of Christ; how then shall lie know you!

Fr. Corn. Indeed? you hellish, devilish Anabaptist, though we are so diverse in regard to orders, rules and ceremonies, are we ecclesiastics not all comprehended in one sacrament of priesthood, eh?

Herin. Your sacrament of priesthood is nevertheless an article like all the other articles of your faith, of which nothing is found written in the holy Scriptures, hence I have no knowledge of, nor faith in it.

Fr. Corn. Ah, you accursed Anabaptist, answer me then, why God the Father should not be willing to know us, who are His priests, for do we not daily, in the mass, offer up His Son Jesus Christ, in flesh and blood? Bah, whom should they both know better than us, their priests? What will you say now, eh?

Herm. How shall I here tell you the secret of the mass? I do not myself know it; but you know it very well.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? if you do not know the secret of the mass, how comes it then that you heretics undertake to describe such an accursed "Death bed of the mass?" in which it says, that the mass, as it were, is lying sick of a putrid ulcer, which she has in her canon, and of which she will have to die. Bah! and do you accursed heretics then not know the secret of the mass, as you call it? Bah! may the devil skin you with the "Death bed of the mass," accursed Anabaptists that you are.

Herm. We have not composed or written the book of the "Death bed of the mass," and do you take it so ill that I speak of the secret of the mass? is it not a common saying, also among the papists when they are asked in regard to something which they do not wish to tell, they generally answer: "I do not want to tell the secret of the mass."

Fr. Corn. Bah! the devil and his mother have introduced this saying among the laity. I would that all who use it would sink together through the earth into the abyss of hell, that I would.

Recorder. O father Cornelis, the people say it without thinking any evil by it; I have frequently heard priests say it, and to confess the truth, I have often said it myself, without any evil thought or reflection.

Fr. Corn. Well, it is enough of it; but, you Anabaptist, answer me whether you believe, that the real flesh and blood of Christ Jesus are offered up by us priests in the mass, let us hear.

Herm. You must ask me concerning things that are contained in the holy Scriptures; for I have not studied your faith or religion.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? You crazy, bedeviled Anabaptist, and would you only be asked concerning things that are expressly contained in the holy Scriptures? Come on then, now I will soundly ask you in regard to things that are most clearly contained in the holy Scriptures. Bah! I have heard it said, that you have grown up children running about at home, that are still unbaptized, nevertheless Christ, in the third chapter of John, says to Nicodemus: "Verily, verily, except every man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Bah, is this not something that is contained in the holy Scriptures, eh?

Herm. When the apostles, according to the command of Christ (Matt. 28), went and taught all nations to believe in Jesus Christ before they baptize them, did the converts to the faith, in the meantime, while they were being instructed, also go about unbaptized at home?

Fr. Corn. Bah, and if your children should die in the meantime, would they not go to the devil in hell, I suppose?

Herm. No, no more than the children or converts to the faith in the time of the apostles.

Fr. Corn. Ali, Bah! that was another thing; those children were circumcised, and thereby they were saved, though they died unbaptized; bah, here you are in a corner, happen what will, yes, yes, yes!

Herm. Those children were not all circumcised; for the faith in Jesus Christ was preached and taught also among the uncircumcised Gentiles; now I am out of the corner again.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? I shall put you in the corner again. Bah! as the children of the uncircumcised Gentiles, that died without baptism, went to the devil, so your children that die without baptism also go into eternal perdition; do you understand this?

Herm.. Our children that die before baptism certainly do not go into eternal perdition, any more than did the children of the Old Testament, that died uncircumcised before the eighth day.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! do you think that the children of the Old Testament, that died uncircumcised before the eighth day, are saved? bah, this were a fine thing.

Herm. Yes, this we think, without once doubting it, and I am surprised to hear you doubt it.

Fr. Corn. Bah, what do you make of the original sin then, which the children inherit from Adam and Eve, eh?

Herm. What do you make of the death of Christ? for John the Baptist said: "Behold, the Lamb of God, which beareth away the sin of the world." John 1:29.

Fr. Corn. Bah, Christ bears away all the sin of the world, as you Anabaptists understand, think and believe. Bah, who then shall be damned? no one, I suppose.

Herm. Christ says in the sixteenth chapter of Mark: "He that believeth not shall be damned;" but He nowhere says: "He that is not baptized (understand, in infancy) shall be damned."

Fr. Corn. Bah, here you lie with your vile, false, lying mouth; for did I not tell you, that in the third chapter of St. John it is written, that Christ said to Nicodemu's . "° erily, verily, except every man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God?" bah I here I have certainly cornered you, have I not, eh?

Herm. No; for. Christ there speaks of no external baptism, nor does He mention baptism; but He speaks of the regeneration which is performed by the Spirit of God, who is sometimes also called a water in the holy Scriptures. For thus says the Lord by the prophet Isaiah in the forty fourth chapter (v. 3): "I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my Spirit upon thy seed." Again, by the prophet Ezekiel, in the thirty sixth chapter (verses 25, 26): "I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: , from all your filthiness, and from x.11 your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart a so will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you." Again, in the thirty ninth chapter (v. 29), the Lord says by Ezekiel: "I have poured out my Spirit upon the house of Israel." Again, by the prophet Joel, in the second chapter (v. 28):

"Then will I pour out my Spirit upon all flesh," etc.

Fr. Corn. Well, all this is done through the sacrament of baptism, when the children are baptized; for then the devil is exercised by the priest, and they are cleansed from the original sin, inherited from Adam and Eve, and they obtain a new heart and a new spirit; bah, thus does God pour or shed His Spirit upon all flesh; you will not cheat me out of this you are cornered and remain cornered, see!

Herm. I tell you again, that Christ, when He talked with Nicodemus, meant such a regeneration as does not concern external baptism, nor does it children; but it concerns the true believers in Christ, who are begotten according to the will of God, by the word of truth, as James says in the first chapter. Again, Peter, in the first chapter of his first epistle, says: "See that you love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." Of similar Scriptures which do not concern little children or external baptism, there are more yet.

Fr. Corn. Bah, but if the regeneration of water and of the Spirit does not concern children, they must certainly and unmistakably go to the devil; for you acknowledge yourself, that he who does not believe will be damned. Bah, children do certainly not believe as you also say. And when they besides remain unbaptized, and die thus, they must surely be damned; for by what other way could they be saved, eh?

Herm. By the death of Christ, as I have told you. And Christ also says (Matt. 5:18, 19), that to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.

Fr. Corn.. Yes, these are the same arguments with which your hedge preacher yesterday made my spleen run over. Bah, what does all this disputing and arguing amount to; if you would suffer yourself to be converted, you must be willing to be taught, and brought to the Catholic, Christian faith of our mother, the holy Roman church, and to her baptism and religion. Bah, why will you trust so much in the heresies of that damned arch heretic, Menno Simons, and so firmly rely upon this bewitched hedge preacher? Bah, why do you not believe me as well as that Menno Simons? for I am as learned, and have read as much, and certainly much more, as this * * * bishop, Jacob the weaver, and as a Dietrick Phillips, and an Ubbo Frisius, and such devil's brood, I suppose, eh?

Herm. I trust (or build) not upon Merino Simons, nor upon any man; for the propkiet Jeremiah says in his seventeenth chapter (v. 5)

"Thus saith the Lord: Cursed, be the man that trusteth in man."

Fr. Corn. This is very true; in this you say very well, see; if you begin to talk like this, I feel quite hopeful, that I will convert you with the help of God, from this miserable Anabaptism. So I will first prevail upon you, to renounce the same, and to have your unbaptized children baptized in the Catholic church, by a priest, as a good Christian is in duty bound to do, see. Well, Herman, what think you of this, eh?

Herm. I do not think that you are the man that will convert me to your mother, the Roman church, or who will bring me to it, that I shall have my unbaptized children baptized in the papistic church.

Fr. Corn. Ali bah, how do you talk in this strain again; a thousand devils (God bless us), what has come over you? It seems, as though he would trust no longer in Menno Simons, nor in any other man; but as soon as I begin with kindness and friendliness to admonish him to renounce Anabaptism, and to have his unbaptized children baptized in our Catholic church, he instantly pipes another tune. Is this not a fine thing? If you will not be converted, and have your unbaptized children baptized in our church, after the Catholic rite, you can be burned alive at the stake, see.

Herm. This you papists could also do just as well, even if I turned from my faith, and had my unbaptized children baptized in your church.

Fr. Corn. Be sure, we could; but we would give you the sword. If you will suffer yourself to be converted with kindness. I insure you the sword, that I do.

Herm. For what purpose should you give me a sword? it would be of no use to me, for we use no swords.

Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, tush! you well understand what I mean by it: you would only be beheaded with the sword, see.

Herm. After I should have truly and unfeignedly confessed, that I had erred in the faith, and after I should have my unbaptized children baptized in your church, would I then, according to your saying or meaning, not be a good, upright Christian?

Fr. Corn. Jesus, yes, Herman, and should you not in every manner, yes, you, faithful Herman, be as good a Christian as any one can be? This is what I like to hear, see.

Herm. And would you papists make no sin of it, to shed the blood of such a good, upright Christian?

Fr. Corn. Fie, tusk, tush, tush, bah, is it noth. ing else? You would have to die nevertheless, because of your having apostatized from the Catholic Christian faith, and having yourself rebaptized, see.

Herm. The shepherd of the hundred sheep, of whom Christ speaks in the fifteenth chapter of Luke, did nevertheless not cut the throat of the lost or strayed sheep, when He had found it; but He laid it upon His shoulders, and carried it home rejoicing.

Fr. Corn. Ali, bah! what is the use of all this raving and prating? if you want to be converted, be converted, and recant; what shall I say of this? Bah, I should sooner convert the devil in hell and his mother, than I could convert one of these obdurate, petrified Anabaptists; this I swear to you, that I do.

Herm. Therefore I said, that you are not the man who shall be able to prove to me from the holy Scriptures, that my faith, and my baptism, which I received upon confession of my faith in Jesus Christ, is evil; how then should you be able to convert me from it?

Fr. Corn. Indeed? but what devil in hell makes you people so presumptuous as that you have yourselves rebaptized, who have once been baptized? Show me once from the holy Scriptures, that a Christian that has once been baptized is to have himself rebaptized. Bah, I stake my neck, that you will not be able to show this to me with the holy Scriptures, see.

Herm. Alas! poor Friar Cornelis, you have already lost your neck; for in the nineteenth chapter of the Acts of the Apostles it is written: "And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus; and finding certain disciples, he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." Now, poor Friar Cornelis, here you lose your neck.

Fr. Corn. Enough, ah, bah, if they had been rightly baptized. Paul would not have caused them to be rebaptized. No, I have not yet lost my neck, that I have not.

Herm. Well then, I answer the same; if I had been rightly baptized, I would also not have had myself rebaptized. But now you can well hear, that you have unjustly so often called me an accursed Anabaptist.

Fr. Corn. But you were certainly very well baptized; for the priest had baptized you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. And afterwards, only six or seven years ago, you had yourself baptized again; are you therefore not an accursed, damned Anabaptist, eh?

Herm. I was not baptized upon my faith in Jesus Christ, but in my unbelief; and when I heard and understood this, I had myself baptized upon my faith, as Christ Himself has said in the sixteenth chapter of Mark: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Am I therefore an accursed, damned Anabaptist?

Fr. Corn. Yes, you are and remain a damned, accursed Anabaptist, if you do not become converted. For St. Paul says, that there is but one God, one faith, and one baptism; is it not Anabaptism then, to have one's self rebaptized?

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Herm. For this reason you papists are justly (according to your saying) called Anabaptists by the Calvinists, because you have rebaptized in your churches their children, that had been baptized once out here in their preaching.

Fr. Corn. O you awkward, block headed Anabaptist, those children were not rightly baptized, and you know yourself well enough how to prove from the nineteenth chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, that St. Paul caused those who had not been rightly baptized under John's baptism to be rebaptized. Bah, are we Catholics Anabaptists? I suppose so, * * * What shall I say now, does it now become fool's work altogether with the sacrament of baptism see wherewith we are now tormented and vexed; would you accursed Anabaptist now begin to call us Catholics Anabaptists? Bah!

Herm. I do not call you Anabaptists; for I only say, that the Calvinists call you Anabaptists, because you rebaptize their children, which they had once baptized.

Fr. Corn.* * *

(He spoke here only vile words of abuse.)

Herm. Our baptism is nevertheless administered according to the institution of Christ; for in our church the believing are baptized, but you baptize the unbelieving.

Fr. Corn. Bah, the sponsors believe in behalf of the children, until they are old enough to believe themselves, do you understand this?

Herm. No; I find nothing said in the Scriptures, about sponsors, nor about one man believing in behalf of another.

Fr. Corn. Bah, now you are clearly cornered; for does not St. Luke say in the fifth chapter, that Christ saw the faith of the bearers who let down the man afflicted with the palsy, through the roof with his couch, and that He therefore healed him and forgave his sins, eh? Bah, here for once I have clearly cornered you; get out if you can. Now you have spectacles on your nose, have you not, eh?

Herm. No; for from this it is not to be understood, that the man afflicted with the palsy did not himself believe, or was without faith, as are the children which you baptize.

Fr. Corn. Bah, the old fathers or teachers of our mother, the holy Roman Catholic church do nevertheless understand, that the bearers of the man afflicted with the palsy signify the sponsors, who hold the children when they are being baptized, and believe in behalf of the children, till these are old enough. to believe for themselves; for to this end the sacrament of confirmation is instituted, to put the children, when they are old enough to believe themselves, in remembrance that they were baptized. Bah, I could very well show you this from the ancient fathers, but you Anabaptists will rely most firmly on the holy Scriptures alone, so that you will not once hearken to the ancient fathers or teachers of the holy church. Bah, it seems, as the provincial of the Augustinians tells me, that, when one begins to mention something to you from St. Jerome, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Gregory, or some other ancient fathers, that you people carry on in just such a crazy and ugly manner, as though one began to speak to you of the very devil is this not a fine thing?